SPLIT: Can't hit max efficiency with 100% score on Extractor

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passionfly1
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SPLIT: Can't hit max efficiency with 100% score on Extractor

Post by passionfly1 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:35 am

Renunciate wrote:Okay, I'm tearing my hair out. Have BER 21 devices going in, have entertainer Flush With Success buff, 11 experimentation points. I'm even burning Bespin Port like water! Starting at 29%, I experiment and end up with all the boxes filled at 99% and a BER 43 Elite Chem or Mineral. What the heck am I doing wrong? (I did manage to get a couple of 44 Minerals, but the exact same process and materials also got me a handful of 43's.)

Also, how do I max storage? I usually end up with just one exp point to spend on it. :(

Any suggestions happily accepted. Thanks in advance.

Cietina Schiff of Ahazi
You must get at least one "amazing" result from experimentation to get a BER 44 Elite. I repeat MUST! The advantage of having structure experimentation clothing is when you are done with your BER experimentation using the default 11 points u get (and have gotten at least 1 or more amazing result), the extra experimentation points can THEN be used to put points in increasing the hopper size. The only advantage a suit has is to increase the hopper size! Because if your not able to get a max BER rating with the 11 points that you get then your resources suck or your doing something wrong like using a -15% station instead of a +15% station, lol. 11 points is plenty to get max BER with good resources if you start at the 29% assemble range. If your not getting a 29% upon initial assembly then again your resources SUCK! Go buy/harvest some new resources. Adv parts for harvesters all require HR/SR/UT to be over 960 in those areas especially UT, since its 66% of the part. A lesser extent is MA but this applies to hopper size more then getting a max BER.

The only resource that can absolutely worthless is Inert Gas since it has none of those stats to begin with and is a "schematic filler" resource just like crated components are. Crated components have ZERO influence on crafting max BER Adv harvesters. You can make Crated components out of pure crap if you like. Yes, I know Wall Modules have an experimentation bar and why the devs included this I have no idea >.<

If you have a full 3 piece suit (breastplate, weapon, shirt are the only ones capable of holding an "elite" +8 modifier in them) all totaling +24, then get an entertainer experimentation buff and other modifiers (not sure exactly which ones but the last +6 is all temp buffs and the info is on the web somewhere) so your total is +30, you will have a total of 14 experiment points (+3 bonus is max allowed by the game) toward ADV parts for elites. Remember its 1 additional experiment point for each +10 your clothing/buffs give you. So if your experiment suit totals for all pieces a +9 (ie:a +2, +4, +3 in each suit part for example) you will get ZERO additional experiment points unless you add buffs/entertainer buffs. Its always a multiple of 10.

Structure assembly bonus to your crafting suit are useless since assembly only applies to creating sockets and since no structure item be it space or architecture has sockets its worthless. The ONLY traders that gain benefits from an assembly bonus are Armorsmiths/Weaponsmiths and Tailors (using old school SWG terminology here but you know what I mean =P) The initial percentage you get (hopefully this number is 29% or you will eat up precious experimental points getting it too BER 44/21/7 etc) upon the FIRST assembly (before you start out experimenting) is SOLELY based on the quality of the resources you stuck into the schematic never the assembly bonus! What is better in the other sockets of your suit is Luck or hell even Camouflage if your inclined to go out into the world to service your harvesters with your Dathomir camo kit enable. Although why you would ever leave your house with your experiment suit on I would never understand lol

Doning your fabulously stylish structure suit and buffing up you start to craft with 14 points available. With 1 "amazing" result you can have 4 points left over (because you will use up 10 points to get it to max BER). After the harvester gets to 44 BER, you can use left over points to make the hopper ginormous. With 11 points and no suit you will have 1 point to spare towards hopper size. With EIGHT "amazing" results you can have a granddaddy Elite harvester with BER 44 and FIVE, count em FIVE points to use to increase the hopper size. Eight "amazing" results will only use up 9 experimentation points leaving you with 5 to make a monster of all monsters Elite. GOOD LUCK!

This is the Holy Grail all harvester Traders strive for. A behemoth Elite that sucks in at BER 44 rate and can hold almost 4/5 of a million units of resources in one swoop (assuming you have the hopper storage expertise points invested)!
Last edited by passionfly1 on Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:26 am, edited 20 times in total.

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Re: SPLIT: Can't hit max efficiency with 100% score on Extractor

Post by fridge33sam » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:13 pm

passionfly1 wrote:
Renunciate wrote:Okay, I'm tearing my hair out. Have BER 21 devices going in, have entertainer Flush With Success buff, 11 experimentation points. I'm even burning Bespin Port like water! Starting at 29%, I experiment and end up with all the boxes filled at 99% and a BER 43 Elite Chem or Mineral. What the heck am I doing wrong? (I did manage to get a couple of 44 Minerals, but the exact same process and materials also got me a handful of 43's.)

Also, how do I max storage? I usually end up with just one exp point to spend on it. :(

Any suggestions happily accepted. Thanks in advance.

Cietina Schiff of Ahazi
You must get at least one "amazing" result from experimentation to get a BER 44 Elite. I repeat MUST! The advantage of having structure experimentation clothing is when you are done with your BER experimentation of the default 11 points u get and have gotten at least 1 or more amazing the extra experimentation points can THEN be put to increase the hopper size.

If you have a full 3 piece suit (breastplate, weapon, shirt) all totaling +24, then get an entertainer buff and other modifiers (not sure exactly which ones but the last +6 is all temp buffs and the info is on the web somewhere) so your total is +30, you will have a total of 14 experiment points toward ADV parts for elites.

With 1 "amazing" result you can have 4 points left over after the part gets to 44 BER to use to make the hopper ginormous. With EIGHT "amazing" results you can have a granddaddy Elite harvestor with BER 44 and FIVE, count em FIVE points to use to increase the hopper size. Eight "amazing" results will only use up 9 experimentation points leaving you with 5 to make a monster of all monsters Elite. GOOD LUCK!

This is the Holy Grail all harvestor Traders strive for. A behemoth Elite that can hold almost 4/5 of a million units of resources in one swoop (assuming you have the hopper storage expertise points invested)!
I'm no architect, but if the above info isn't already added to a guide somwhere, can we get this split post stickied? I think it sounds invaluable!
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Re: SPLIT: Can't hit max efficiency with 100% score on Extractor

Post by Zimoon » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:28 pm

I imagine Savacc will do that as soon as he comes around. He administers the sticked FAQ and all the guides that it links to. But I could not find the statement there so ... :)

/Zimoon

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Re: SPLIT: Can't hit max efficiency with 100% score on Extractor

Post by Savacc » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:23 am

The stickied thread at the top of the page has links to two guides for making harvesters. The guides in question are also on the first page of this forum since we get so little traffic here.

In any event I would not "stickie" a post that contained this many errors and misinformation. :shock:

First it is not true that you "MUST" get an "amazing success" to get a BER 44 Elite Harvester. However, in the case of the OP it is probably true. :?: Now let me explain. If your resources are good enough (960+) then you will always be able to experiment them to 100% in any single line, unless the schematic is "bugged" (see my guide for +44.999992 Crafting Stations for a detailed discription of this "bug"). The schematics for Elite Harvesters are not "bugged", however the schematic for the subcomponant Mining Unit on HEAVY Harvesters is bugged (since we are not talking about Heavy Harvesters that is just a bit of trivia I have thrown in). However, if you recall, the OP was saying he sometimes gets +43 BER Harvesters and sometimes gets +44 after getting an Assembly of 29%. (Im going to assume he is using the same resources for both). There is only one situation where I have ever seen this happen, and it is when the resources average exactly 960. This somehow induces a "rounding bug" that behaves just like the ones in the "bugged schematics" I talked about earlier. That is, if you only get "great successes" you can only get to 99% (and BER 43) but if you get at least one "amazing" you get 100% (and BER 44). I cant prove this, but I dont think this "bug" happens everytime your resources average 960 exactly. I think it happens on some schematics but not others. In fact my guess is that it only happens on a few schematics but not most. NarfBlinko , who has done alot more testing on things like this, may be able to confirm some of this for us.

About now, I can just see the eye rolling :roll: everyone is saying, "What's the big deal here Savacc, Passionfly is right, Renounciate just needs to get an amazing success?" Yes, I agree. I just want everyone to understand that if Renounciate used just a bit better resources, he wouldnt need that amazing. It is only this unique situation that makes Passionfly's advice correct.

OK, so what other minute detail of Passionfly's advice am i going to jump all over next? Well just a couple more. :lol:

Passionfly correctly states that an Architect can get 14 Experimental Points to use on Harvesters. He tells us he in unsure of the final 6 points of skill you need to do that. Well it comes from either the Archtect Helper Monkey, or the Diner. Ill find the post where I explain it.

Passionfly's paragraph on how to experiment the harvy to get the best hopper size is so close to being right, I really shouldn't quibble. I would have worded it differently and included more details and explanations, but...

A few more: Crafting TOOLS are -15 to +15 in effectiveness, Crafting STATIONS are -45 to +45. UT is 50% of the formula not 66%.

Hmmm, I see Passionfly is editing his post, maybe even replying to mine while I edit it :wink:

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Re: SPLIT: Can't hit max efficiency with 100% score on Extractor

Post by passionfly1 » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:33 am

Savacc wrote:The stickied thread at the top of the page has links to two guides for making harvesters. The guides in question are also on the first page of this forum since we get so little traffic here.

In any event I would not "stickie" a post that contained this many errors and misinformation. :shock:

First it is not true that you "MUST" get an "amazing success" to get a BER 44 Elite Harvester. However, in the case of the OP it is probably true. :?: Now let me explain. If your resources are good enough (960+) then you will always be able to experiment them to 100% in any single line, unless the schematic is "bugged" (see my guide for +44.999992 Crafting Stations for a detailed discription of this "bug"). The schematics for Elite Harvesters are not "bugged", however the schematic for the subcomponant Mining Unit on HEAVY Harvesters is bugged (since we are not talking about Heavy Harvesters that is just a bit of trivia I have thrown in). However, if you recall, the OP was saying he sometimes gets +43 BER Harvesters and sometimes gets +44 after getting an Assembly of 29%. (Im going to assume he is using the same resources for both). There is only one situation where I have ever seen this happen, and it is when the resources average exactly 960. This somehow induces a "rounding bug" that behaves just like the ones in the "bugged schematics" I talked about earlier. That is, if you only get "great successes" you can only get to 99% (and BER 43) but if you get at least one "amazing" you get 100% (and BER 44). I cant prove this, but I dont think this "bug" happens everytime your resources average 960 exactly. I think it happens on some schematics but not others. In fact my guess is that it only happens on a few schematics but not most. NarfBlinko , who has done alot more testing on things like this, may be able to confirm some of this for us.

About now, I can just see the eye rolling :roll: everyone is saying, "What's the big deal here Savacc, Passionfly is right, Renounciate just needs to get an amazing success?" Yes, I agree. I just want everyone to understand that if Renounciate used just a bit better resources, he wouldnt need that amazing. It is only this unique situation that makes Passionfly's advice correct.

OK, so what other minute detail of Passionfly's advice am i going to jump all over next? Well just a couple more. :lol:

Passionfly correctly states that an Architect can get 14 Experimental Points to use on Harvesters. He tells us he in unsure of the final 6 points of skill you need to do that. Well it comes from either the Archtect Helper Monkey, or the Diner. Ill find the post where I explain it.

Passionfly's paragraph on how to experiment the harvy to get the best hopper size is so close to being right, I really shouldn't quibble. I would have worded it differently and included more details and explanations, but...
one part is not true and just yesterday I proved it by making an elite mineral harvester. With 1 amazing result I was able to get my harvestor to 99% and get it 44 BER. I am not certain if this applies to the heavies but I'm certain it applies to the elite parts and the elite final product. Time and again I get either 99% or 100% and still make a 44 BER harv or 21 BER adv part. I'm pretty positive a 98% will give u a BER 43/20 respectively. One amazing result will get you to 99% and 44 BER and I just wish I had a screenshot of my creation yesterday.

I am using minimal 960 HR/SR/UT resources tho. Again your mileage will vary. If u can't get your hands on very good resources you will eat precious experiment points but never under any circumstance can you get a max BER harv without at least ONE amazing result, its just not possible. You can have all 14 points spent to get to 100% and if you don't get at least 1 "amazing" result it will always be a BER 43. Tbh, I think the "amazing" result is a switch that unlocks the BER 44 capability on a harvester. That's how I look at it.

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Re: SPLIT: Can't hit max efficiency with 100% score on Extractor

Post by Savacc » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:47 am

Are you saying you used resources less then 960 and with an amazing you got it to 99% and still got a BER 44?

You could be right. I have never made an Elite Harvester with less then resources of 960+, in fact I use resources of 990+ as that was what was needed years ago to cap Harvesters (long before we had Elites). Narf or Andhanni may know more about this.

Edit- you edited your post to add the last paragraph while I was posting this. Now you are probably replying while I edit. :roll:
What more can I say, you are simply wrong about "needing" an amazing to cap BER on a Harvester.

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Re: SPLIT: Can't hit max efficiency with 100% score on Extractor

Post by Zimoon » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:29 am

Not to be the constant and static nay-sayer but I am 99.999999% sure Savacc is correct here.

The path from 29% to 100% (or 99% then) is exactly the same. Assume it is exactly 29.000000% and the upper one is a bugged 99.9999%, or something like that, then the distance is 70.9999% (completely neglecting SOE's funny and non-mathematical way of dealing with %). That distance is doable in 11 points of Great Success, or any other combination giving 71% or more.

I believe it is quite uncommon to have resources which weighed average is exactly 960, but even then I cannot see how that would be affected by Amazing vs. Great Success, or worse.

However, assume that it is so, then Elites would be the special case apart from most other crafting. Or can we then assume that in all crafting, to get the last top notch we must always get at least one Amazing?

When I begin juggling with the thoughts I become reluctant, to say the least. Not impossible, we have seen the Devs doing more weird things, but ... 8)

On the other hand, being a fledgling Architect (Master I am but I do not perceive myself a Master Architect just yet), and not always wearing a suit, and not always getting drunk on Bespin Port, but in a Research Center and in a Diner, I have still to see myself not getting Amazing Successes when crafting Elites :|
Maybe we are just throwing stones in a greenhouse here?

/Zimoon

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Re: SPLIT: Can't hit max efficiency with 100% score on Extractor

Post by Tech Twin » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:00 pm

I didn't read the entire thread due to time constraints but did anyone mention the "bug" regarding the 99% vs. 100%. With the mining units and the harvs themselves, no matter what you do and what resoruces you have the crafting UI will only show 99%... but if you look at the BER it is maxed at whatever is appropriate for your harvester.

So, as long as the ending BER is 10/14/44 or whatever it should be then don't worry about the 99% experimentation.
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Re: SPLIT: Can't hit max efficiency with 100% score on Extractor

Post by Tech Twin » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:09 pm

Savacc wrote:What more can I say, you are simply wrong about "needing" an amazing to cap BER on a Harvester.

I think this is a point of contention. Mathematically I agree with you. However, when I learned to craft I was told you needed 1 amazing result. And that's just always stuck. However, I have crafted harvies with a weighted average around 960+ and did not cap them without getting that amazing result. Mathematically it should be possible to cap (with 11 points) but for some reason it doesn't happen.

I haven't bothered to disect the issue because I've never not capped when getting an amazing result.

*shrug*
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Re: SPLIT: Can't hit max efficiency with 100% score on Extractor

Post by Savacc » Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:18 am

I can see your point Tech Twin. If you are an Archtect, very few things you make require that you experiment on them, basically only Crafting Tools, Stations and Harvesters. An obsurdly high number of those schematics are "bugged". So I can see why an Architect would decide that they "always need to get an amazing to cap", because most of the time it is going to be true. I do a lot more crafting as a Shipwright and none of the schematics in Shipwright are "bugged", or at least not with this bug. :wink: So my perspective says , "The vast majority of schematics are normal, you dont need an amazing to cap them."

If anyone is confused about what I mean when I talk about the "bugged" and normal schematics, I explain it in detail in my Guide for making Crafting Stations (where all the schematics are bugged)

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Re: SPLIT: Can't hit max efficiency with 100% score on Extractor

Post by redwhitenblue » Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:25 am

I have crafted and capped most things in both structures and domestics and have noticed that certain things will not cap without an amazing. When making harvesters, with and without a suit, I have made 44 BERs every time. I have been able to collect resources that are well above the 960 average so I can't give input on that part of the debate. I usually get an amazing by drinking port and being in a research city but I haven't seen a lack of one give me less than 44 BER with sufficient resources. However in domestics I have noticed that making pet food with excellent resources I will still only hit 99% and 29 uses with only great successes while that one amazing success will push it up to 100% and 30 uses. I also have noticed that after getting that one amazing subsequent amazings have no benefit to the end result of an item that I am using less than perfect resources on. Because of this I have made it a habit to strive for at least one amazing per craft in just about everything I make. I drink port until I hit that amazing and then finish the craft two points at a time without port.

I hope my experiences give some input into the debate.
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Re: SPLIT: Can't hit max efficiency with 100% score on Extractor

Post by Zimoon » Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:13 pm

Interesting, interesting, indeed :)

For me the problem is to craft and not get an amazing 8)

And I guess that is the same problem for many Traders, thus this topic is perhaps an open topic that must be researched. Geeh, what I love SWG, always a new item around the corner, and sometimes behind the least expected corner :mrgreen:

/Zimoon

PS: I hope we did not scare you away passionfly1, that was not our intention, at least not mine :)

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